You Can Hate It Now: Batman vs.Superman (SPOLIERS! SPOLIERS)

[Lyger]

Almost three years of hype, FINALLY it's out.

And the critics proved they are nothing but a bunch of sheeple. Those who decided to hate it from the get-go, hated it. Personally, I thought this movie was great.

Remember all those moaning about the wanton destruction in Man of Steel? This movie spends the first hour addressing that. The pacing of the movie is really good. The movie doesn't drag nowhere near as much as the critics like to say it does. Speaking of which, lets address all the biggest moans before this movie came out

Lex Luthor: Great! Don''t think you'd be intimated by a 5'7 guy with the voice of a 'teddy bear'? Think again. He's NOT the Lex you expect, but as a creepy power-mad maniac who'd think nothing of kidnapping and setting your mom on fire? He was great!

Wonder Woman: Even the critics noted how good she was. Look, the acting threshold in these movies is not especially high, so she didn't need to blow the doors off to give a serviceable performance. And she did.

Too busy: Yes, half the Justice League was shoehorned in, but that time was split well between Batman, Superman, Lex, Wonder Woman, and the world's reaction to Superman. The number of characters meant things never dragged.

Batman: Okay, this was true. Ben Affleck was the lead for a reason (and he did a great job too). Batman actually beat Superman, so the big fight did have an result. (And I fully expect all those who disliked it to moan about how Superman was presented)

Best of all: SERIOUSNESS. No corny jokes to lighten the mood. No Weadon-esque buffonery. Luthor's clowning around is done purely as a facade. The critics who asked for more jokes, they can go watch Marvel movies until the end of time

This is not a perfect movie by any means, but far as comic book movies go, this is, for sure, near the top of the pile. Highly recommended.

[Guest]

Batman actually beat Superman, so the big fight did have an result.

Oh bloody hell of course they had to go down that path making Superman a punching bag for Batman yeah that doesn't make me want to see this movie. From what I've read here I'm probably going to agree with the critics.

[ubernewtype]

Would the movie have been improved any if they had Adam West as Grandpa Wayne, giving Bruce advice (even if only in a dream/hallucination)?

[Nurse Katie]

I love comic books. I love superheroes. I have ever since I was five years old. I also love superhero movies, personally anointed into my love of them when I first watched Superman: The Movie starring the late and great Christopher Reeve. “You will believe a man can fly” said the tagline, and seeing him swoop up into the sky, save Lois Lane, catch the falling helicopter, and set it atop the building it fell from made me believe just that. Ever since then I have been and always will be a major proponent of the superhero movie genre. If you were to ask me to give you a top 10 list of my favorite movies I can promise that at least three of them would be superhero movies, and for good reason. Now I have a plethora of favorite superheroes ranging from Batman, Spider-Man, Starfire before New 52 fucked her up, Storm, the Punisher, Deadpool, Wolverine, Rogue, Cyborg, I could go on all day. But if I was forced to pick an absolute favorite to end all favorites then it would be, without question, the one who is not only the template of which superheroes as we know them today are based off but is so iconic that even people who know almost nothing about comic books know who he is. I’m speaking of course of none other than the Man of Steel himself, Superman.

Lately, Hollywood has been experiencing a comic book movie boom that many argue began with Blade shortly after Batman and Robin started what many consider a dark age not just for superhero movies but summer blockbusters in general. I personally disagree…slightly. While Blade certainly cleared the way, it was Sam Raimi’s first Spider-Man movie that laid down the pavement for which others could travel. Nowadays we’re in an era where just about every comic book property with the possible exceptions of Doom Patrol, Youngblood, and Bomb Queen are considered licenses to print money, and if superhero blockbusters are a contact sport then Disney and Marvel are the undisputed world heavyweight champions. The Marvel Cinematic Universe is the biggest name in the movie industry right now and just about everything it touches turns to gold, even their arguably bad movies like Thor and The Incredible Hulk still being very enjoyable.

Now that’s not to say that every comic book movie we’ve had since Blade and Spidey opened up the floodgates has been good. Over the last decade and a half since Spider-Man graced the silver-screen back in 2002 we’ve seen plenty of hits, but plenty of misses as well. Fox has made almost eight X-Men movies and only two or three of them are genuinely good, Spider-Man has been in a serious rut since Spider-Man 3, the less said about the Fantastic Four the better, and who knows when or if that new Spawn movie will ever happen. But perhaps the most checkered of these movie studios is none other than Warner/DC when it comes to their comic book movies. Since the comic book boom DC has given us two great Batman movies and one so-so Batman movie in The Dark Knight Trilogy, the sub-par Superman Returns, the “Uh, eh…” Watchmen and V For Vendetta, the CGI train-wreck of cringe that was Green Lantern, and the only good thing that came out of that horrendously atrocious Catwoman movie was Halley Barry’s acceptance speech at the Razzies. Suffice to say, pretty much anything that didn’t involve Batman fell flat on its face. Normally, they wouldn’t really care. They’d make a shitty movie, oh well, so much for more non-Batman movies.

But then something happened. In 2012 all the time, effort, and money Disney put into building up their Marvel Movie Universe culminated in the release of The Avengers, one of the most anticipated movies if not the most anticipated movies of all time. It was met with almost universal praise and became the third-highest grossing movie of all time. This was a game changer, especially when The Dark Knight Rises was released to theaters two short months later and was met with an intense burning indifference from the general audience. Despite being a sequel to the universally adored The Dark Knight, the Batman was no match for the combined might of Iron Man, Thor, the Hulk, elite SHIELD Agents Hawkeye and Black Widow, and Captain America. While by no means a bad movie, it couldn’t even hope to live up to the people’s expectations left by Marvel’s big game changer. DC had to act. Marvel was piling up the cash like Scrooge McDuck and DC wanted a piece of the pie.

The following year they released the Zack Snyder directed Man of Steel, the next Superman reboot and what would kick off the DC Cinematic Universe. Despite much fanfare and anticipation, Man of Steel was met with quite possibly the biggest audience divide until that seen in Jurassic World two years later. Some people loved it, some people hated it, and everyone else was very indifferent. It was a darker, more subdued Superman who spent less time being the icon of hope and freedom that he is and more time moping around and being sad because he was different. That’s to say nothing of the infamous climax that resulted in the destruction of a big portion and Metropolis and Superman breaking General Zod’s neck. It had pretty visuals, a decent score (though let’s face it, Hans Zimmer is no John Williams,) a solid cast, and some pretty high octane action scenes. It also had some hokey writing, repetitive dialogue, and a very disjointed story. Suffice to say, it was a bit of a mess. A hot and beautiful mess, but a mess all the same. I wouldn’t say it was by any means a bad movie, but I can’t say it was particularly good either. Still, despite its problems there was still hope. The problems it did have could have been ironed out in a sequel and make audiences believe once again that a man can fly. As divisive as it was it still made well over half a billion dollars, which is not too shabby for the first installment of a brand new franchise. So naturally, a sequel was announced shortly afterwards…

…by having one of Man of Steel’s cast members reading a famous passage from The Dark Knight Returns…a Batman comic. What’s more, a Batman comic written by Frank Miller, a racist sexist man-child who has routinely gone out of his way to make Superman look bad so that Batman looks good.

From that point on it was not only one red flag after another with every announcement about the movie, but it was also clear what Warner and DC’s intentions actually were. They didn’t care about bringing their great characters and rich comic book world to life on the big screen. They only cared about catching up with Marvel and getting a piece of that Avengers pie, and nowhere is that more evident than it is in this movie. They thought that they could do in one two and half, almost three hour movie what Marvel did with five, and their tactic of doing so was pimping Batman like there was no tomorrow because Bat-fans eat that shit up. So much to the point that not only did Superman not get top billing in the sequel to his own movie, but he was so sidelined in all of the marketing and build-up that he didn’t even get a line of dialogue until the third fucking trailer.

Though despite all the warning signs as well as the sinking feeling I had not unlike the kind you get when doing something needlessly dangerous or stupid, I kept telling myself that I’d be wrong. I wanted to be wrong. Despite my outspoken animosity toward everything leading up to this movie I wanted to leave the theater with so much egg on my face that you could smack me with a frying pan and call me an omelette, and I gladly would have eaten so much crow that I’d be passing beaks and feathers for the rest of my natural life. And believe me, I was looking for every excuse under the sun for me to like this movie, and I went in with my expectations on the floor under the naïve assumption that thing could only go up when starting at the bottom.

I was wrong. Holy Bat-nipples was I wrong! This movie didn’t knock my expectations through the floor so much as it pummeled them into a bloody, bone-fragmented pulp 50 miles below the Earth’s crust. I’m going to level with you all, this movie sucks. It’s bad. It’s horrifically bad! No, it’s not the worst made comic book movie, or the most boring, or the most annoying, or even the most incompetent. No, this is bad because it’s offensive. It’s offensive intellectually, it’s offensive toward the source material it’s based on, and most egregiously it’s offensive toward Superman and everything he represents. This isn’t so much a love-letter toward two of the greatest and most iconic superheroes of all time so much as it’s a declaration of worship and obedience toward Batman and a warrant for Superman’s execution! So just how bad is it? Oh, strap yourselves in, because you’re in for a bumpy ride! Be also warned that this review contains some massive spoilers, so tread with caution from here on out.

I’m not kidding. I’m spoiling this movie, so if you genuinely want to see it then don’t read on because I WON’T be pulling my punches here. Got it? …okay then.

Now I want to start off by saying that this is the most faithful and accurate transition from comic to film of Batman in the history of film. Normally such attention toward the source material would be a good thing, but there’s one small problem. This is Frank Miller’s Batman, and Frank Miller only knows how to write one kind of Batman; HIS Batman. And his Batman is a cruel, bitter, paranoid, psychotic, neo fascist asshole who’s ego is only matched by his mommy issues and outright murders people. Oh yeah, Batman fucking kills people in this movie. And I don’t mean kills them by accident or he runs into some situations where only one of them is walking out alive regardless of whether he likes it or not, I mean he just goes in guns blazing, as in literally using guns, and mows people down like he’s the fucking Punisher. In fact if you told me that the studio making this movie was accidentally sent a script depicting one of Punisher’s scenes in Daredevil season two but they used it anyway I’d not only believe you, but it would make more sense than the actual plot of this movie. But even in the realm of its own stupidity, Batman killing people doesn’t make any damn sense. If this version of Batman is so okay with killing people that the first thing he thinks about when seeing Superman is putting him in the grave then how and why in the FUCK is the Joker still alive in this universe? As though that wasn’t enough this version of Bruce Wayne could not be more goddamn obvious if he wore a T-shirt that said “I’m Batman” and gave TMZ a tour of the fucking Bat-cave. He’s so perpetually pissed off and growls at everything that there’s no way in hell someone wouldn’t have figured out that he’s Batman by now.

But more on the plot in a minute. Let’s talk a bit about Superman, who I was worried would end up taking a backseat to the movie as a whole in order to make room for the bat-worship. Well, I was right. Superman not only has considerably less screen presence than Batman does, but he has no character arc whatsoever. When he’s not flip-flopping between suffering an existential crisis and being an allegory for Jesus Christ with all the subtlety of head-butting a supernova, he’s just moping around feeling sorry for himself and constantly looking like Henry Cavil smelled something really sour before the camera started rolling. Remember when you were a kid you’d always invite that one kid from school to your birthday party that nobody really knew or liked but you always invited them because you felt so sorry for them? That’s how this movie treats Superman. Like they really don’t want him there are all but they grudgingly let him in anyway and largely ignore him. The movie spends so much time with other people reacting to Superman that he himself barely gets to be Superman, which is a crying shame because Cavil could easily knock the role right out of the park if he was given the chance. There are tons of scenes in this movie that show the aftermath of Superman saving someone, but it doesn’t show the actual rescue. And in the few times he’s not being a mopey dopey savior, he’s acting needlessly stupid and incompetent. You know, how Frank Miller ALWAYS writes Superman in any story he writes involving him. Yeah, ‘creative consultant’ my ass! I could go on all day about things in this movie that Superman easily could have solved, especially at the middle and ending bits, but I’ll leave that task to CinemaSins and How It Should Have Ended.

And look, I understand that characters have to change and evolve to not only stay relevant to the interests of modern audiences but also to reflect the society we have instead of the society we want. I get then and agree wholeheartedly. You want Superman to live in and protect a world where just as many if not more people are afraid of him and see him as an alien menace as there are who love and adore him as a hero? Fine. You want Superman to question his place in such a world? Fine. You want Superman to be forced into making a tough, life-altering choice that he absolutely has to make? Fine. You can do all that. But the core of his character should remain intact. He should still act like Superman, someone who will always stand tall and do the right thing even if the right thing isn’t always the easy thing, the smart thing, or the popular thing. Not hover ominously in the air or look sad while a bunch of people celebrating Day of the Dead are getting too close for comfort.

The rest of the cast doesn’t fare much better. Jimmy Olsen and Mercy Graves are two staples of the Superman lore and mythos, one being Superman’s best buddy and the other Luthor’s loyal and lethal bodyguard. They’re in the movie, but one gets shot to pieces and the other blown to bits almost immediately after showing up. Wonder Woman is easily the best part of the whole movie, but I’m still not certain if that’s because Gal Gadot’s performance was genuinely good or if it was because everything else was so god-awful that her performance paired with her bouncy theme music just looks good in comparison to everything else. Lois Lane and Martha Kent have no reason to be in this movie at all other than to get kidnapped, give Clark a pep-talk, or do something stupid that gets them in trouble that makes them have to be saved. Both Lawrence Fishburne and Jeremy Irons are completely wasted as Perry and Alfred, serving only as means of telling Supes and Bats “No you can’t” only to be completely ignored, and someone at Warner and DC owes Holly Hunter a huge fucking apology for being goaded into acting opposite a jar of Lex Luthor’s piss. No, you didn’t read that wrong, one of the props and central plot points in this movie is a jar of Lex Luthor’s piss juxtaposed to Elastigirl. Good thing Incredibles 2 will happen soon enough and she can leave this flick out of her resume.

And speaking of jars of piss, Lex Luthor is the worst character in the whole movie. Jesse Eisenberg is bar-none the biggest miscast since Topher Grace was passed off as any sort of threat in Spider-Man 3, and his portrayal of Superman’s greatest foe is easily the worst comic book movie villain ever. Yeah, I’m not kidding! He plays Lex Luthor as a twitchy, bi-polar, wormy dweeb that’s a bizarre, horrible hybrid of Jim Carrey from Batman Forever, Johnny Depp from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, and Nicolas Cage from A Vampire’s Kiss who hates his dad and borders on psychosis yet also looking like he’s about to start crying at any second. He hates superheroes because…reasons, and has issues with things like gods and higher power because, again, reasons, and there’s no clear explanation to why he’s doing any of this or even what his company is or what it exactly does. There’s no method to his madness. It honestly feels like both Lex Luthor AND the Joker were supposed to be in this movie, but later they merged the two character’s parts together and forgot to remove the Joker antics.

Am I dwelling too much on the characters? Okay, I’ll talk about something else. The editing and pacing in this movie are completely fucked. If switching from scene to scene without an establishing shot was a contact sport then this movie would be the undisputed world heavyweight champion. For once I actually agree that a movie should have been three hours long, because the narrative flow in this movie is as clumsy as clumsy gets. I’m not kidding, it seems like there’s ten different stories crammed into one. First there’s Batman being afraid of Superman and fearing that he will soon destroy or take over the world, then there’ Superman suffering an existential crisis on his place in the world, then there’s Wonder Woman looking for a picture that Luthor stole from her, there’s some guy in a wheelchair who hates Superman and gets tricked into blowing up the capital building by Luthor, there’s tons of people and pundits reacting to Superman and specifically the climax to Man of Steel, there’s some Russian guy who works for Luthor, there’s Clark looking into Batman’s vigilante work and butting heads with Perry White about writing a story about it, there’s Luthor keeping up surveillance on other metahumans who will eventually appear in Justice League, there’s Batman’s weird dream sequence about Superman destroying/taking over the world and someone who I think was the Flash telling him about Lois Lane through a portal, then there’s Batman prepping to fight Superman but we never see him working on or building the armor needed to fight him, then there’s Luthor mucking about with Krytonian technology and-OH MY GOD THIS MOVIE IS A CLUSTERFUCK! It’s a spider’s web of unfocused plot threads with no strong overarching plot to tie everything together, and as a result you get a movie that tries to do everything but focuses on nothing. And don’t even get me started on the fucking dream sequences! Seriously, this movie has more dream sequences that A Nightmare on Elm Street; a movie about people dying because they fall asleep!

And then there’s the fight, the event that this movie banked on so much that they put it in the title of the movie. It lasts eight, maybe twelve minutes and doesn’t really end so much as it just kind of stops. On one hand I’m glad it wasn’t some 45 minute slugfest because that shit would have gotten old fast, but on the other hand THE MOVIE IS CALLED BATMAN VS SUPERMAN! The fight was what this movie was selling itself on! And while it’s a dumb and clichéd idea, you can make it work as a movie. Not just from the two fighting, but their ideals of justice being at odds with each other which starts off as a rivalry but grows increasingly more bitter until it reaches the bursting point. But again, because this movie is such a mess, there’s no gravitas to the fight whatsoever. And instead of it being a clash of ideals between two characters whom are too stubborn to realize that while their methods differ they ultimately fight for the same goal, it’s a super-powered dick measuring contest that’s only happening because Superman was blackmailed by Lex Luthor, I’m not fucking kidding, because he kidnapped his mom. Now that could be forgiven if it was at least an exciting fight that could have gone either way, but it wasn’t. It was a beating that was written and choreographed to pander to Bat-fans. Just for fun I counted the number of times Superman landed a hit on Batman that didn’t involve throwing him through a wall or floor, and there are…two. That shove you see in the trailer and one punch that breaks Batman’s helmet. In any case Batman comes out the clear winner because of course he fucking does, but then has a change of heart and decides he wants to be Superman’s best pal in the whole world because, and I’m not joking here, he finds out that he and Superman both have moms named Martha.

Yeah. This movie took a silly coincidence and turned it into a major plot-point. Ugh…

After the fight is over, the movie just sort of meanders around a bit with Batman saving Superman’s mom and Lex Luthor releasing Doomsday, who looks…unpleasant. Not because he’s a total CGI monster, but because he looks like a mix between a Michael Bay Ninja Turtle and a deflated Brock Lesnar in which the ensuing fight causes MORE property damage than that seen at the end of Man of Steel but the movie constantly and awkwardly goes out of its way to let the audience know “It’s okay, there’s nobody in the area they’re fighting in!” Plenty of explosions happen but they can’t kill it so Superman takes Batman’s Kryptonite spear and uses it to kill Doomsday but because he’s also weakened by the weapon so Doomsday sucker-punches Superman into the grave.

No. I’m not joking, not exaggerating, and speaking no hyperbole whatsoever. Superman DIES. Not only does he die, but he goes out like the biggest bitch this side of Boba Fett getting knocked into the sarlacc pit by a blind Han Solo. It’s supposed to be this big heroic sacrifice but just comes off as the superhero equivalent to totally your ride by driving it into a wall because you messing with the radio instead of watching the road. Made even more infuriating when Batman’s all “I failed him in life, I won’t fail him in death” at the funeral as if he lost a close personal friend even though he spent the entire movie hating him, fearing him, and plotting to kill him and almost delivered the killing blow not 20 minutes earlier. Good job, DC! Not only did you jumpstart your cinematic universe by alienating every Superman fan who went to see this movie as well as alienating every parent who had to spend their night comforting their crying 8 year olds who had the audacity of thinking seeing a Superman movie would be fun, you also reinforced the false believe people have that Superman is just a big, dumb brute who charges in head-first and doesn’t use strategic thinking whatsoever. And yes, I did see the dirt float off the casket and yes I do know that Henry Cavil is starring in both upcoming Justice League movies because, duh, there are three characters who absolutely have to be in a Justice League movie and one of them is Superman, so it’s obvious they’re going to bring him back. However, it’s not like he’s going to show up at the start of Justice League and be like “I got better” as an explanation. You can bet your ass they’re going to milk his death and the Jesus symbolism for everything they’re worth, meaning he likely won’t even appear until the halfway point if not the END of Justice League Part One, either way not being around when the team he’s supposed to form comes together, not to mention making the next standalone Superman movie all the more unlikely.

In conclusion, I hate this movie. I wanted to love it, but I hate it. What’s more, I especially hate what this movie represents; greed. The only reason this movie exists is because DC wants to catch up to Marvel and they’re using Batman as a crutch, putting him on the pedestal and throwing Superman and his rich lore and history right under the bus. But more to the point, I hate this movie because just like ‘Pixels’ it makes me hate the things I love. I was bored within the first act, angry within the second act, and by the time it was over I wanted to take every piece of comic book memorabilia I owned and burn it, the only thing stopping me was the fact that not only would half my good shirts and at least one third of my movie collection would be gone but I’d also be hospitalized by fifth degree burns from trying to blowtorch my World’s Finest insignia tattoo off my arm. No, it’s not the worst movie ever nor is it the most annoying or incompetently made, but because it’s fucking offensive.

Fuck this movie, fuck the people who made this movie, and an extra special, nay, a person fuck you toward Frank Miller. Your comic “The Dark Knight Returns” may have saved Batman, but it ruined Superman and spawned an entire generation of apathetic zealots who think Batman is the best thing since oxygen and beer while Superman is just a big retarded boy scout who wears an S for ‘stupid’ and since this movie borrows so much from that comic it will likely do the same for an entirely new generation. I hope Christopher Reeve himself ascends from above and shoves a rabid porcupine up your ass before forcing you balls-first through the windshield of a burning Pinto filled with pissed off starving honey badgers, you son of a bitch!

[thatguywiththefaceOG]

I wanted to like this movie I really did, but it just awful. Batman is an idiot murder, Superman doesn't do anything. Lex is bad comic relief. Way too long, lacks both humanity and a point. Synder doesn't get heroes. He doesn't get that they stop they save people. Superman saving people is stuffed in a 30 second montage well the film focuses on him thinking about himself and Batman commenting mass manslaughter. And I don't want to hear Batman killed in other movies, because that was the problem in other movies but that at least so Batman could save people, not that in this was. God it's like this film was made by a 14 year old.

On the plus side Wonder Women was awesome, the Doomsday fight was kind of cool because the heroes where not acting like complete idiots, and lois lane stuff was cool. The soundtrack is also amazing.

1 and half jars of piss out of four

[prfctcellrulz]

While I do respect your hatred towards this movie, Katie (And DAMN, what a rant! I applaud and tip my...huh, what is that on my head, is that a crown? 16, would you call it a crown? (16: I hate you.) Crown it is.), however, being the completely-biased superhero geek that I am, I STILL plan on seeing this movie no matter what, and then being the polar opposite of you by praising the everliving HELL out of it!

[Lyger]

Believe it or not, there are people who prefer dark and gritty over light and breezy, so going in, I knew I was going to enjoy this movie. My fear this would be another Force Awakens (made to please all) was unfounded. This movie was what I wanted. If you liked The Dark Knight Returns and The Watchmen, chances are you’ll like this flick. If you loved The Avengers and Deadpool, well, you’ll probably dislike BvS. Not every comic book fan likes every incarnation of their favourite character. Just because this movie features Batman and Superman doesn’t mean it will appeal to the Batman and Superman you like, but consider that it appeals to the Batman and Superman other people like.

If you like Superman to be a cheerful fellow, I’m afraid I got some bad news. This Superman is dour. Super dour. I think he smiled once in the whole movie and that was when he got into a tub with a naked Amy Adams. He joylessly saved a bunch of people, making it almost seem like it was a chore more than a calling. ‘Oh no Superman is meant to be cheerful.’ No, Superman is whatever the hell the directors and writers want him to be. You have your happy Superman in comics and movies and TV. Guilty, remorseful Superman is here. And the movie he co-headlined made $500 million in under a week.

It seems like the real winner out of the fight between Batman and Superman was Wonder Woman. She outsmarted Batman, held her own against Doomsday, and wasn’t bogged down with ‘woman problems’ like Black Widow was during Age of Ultron. I know, I know, some will moan that Wonder Woman debuted in a Batman movie, but it was a great debut and got me interested in seeing her solo movie. In setting up the DC Extended Universe, I thought this movie did a tremendous job. I’m actually interested in seeing where things go from here. Could the future scenario happen and we see Injustice Superman taking over? Why was the Flash in a mechanical suit? When Superman returns from the dead (and I really wished they kept him dead) will be more bitter and angry than he was before? I sure do hope so.

[Nurse Katie]

Believe it or not, there are people who prefer dark and gritty over light and breezy, so going in, I knew I was going to enjoy this movie.

Being dark or light, sad, funny, scary, or thrilling doesn't make a movie good. Good writing, good direction, and good editing make movies good. I hate this movie not because it's an utterly joyless slog completely devoid of nuance and gravitas yet thinks it's smarter than it actually is (though that certainly doesn't help) but because it's just a bad movie. The writing is bad, the pacing is bad, the editing is bad, and while the visuals look impressive it's only if you're able to see them through the over-saturated shadow effects and obnoxious shaking camera. If the movie was dark and gritty AND good, I wouldn't care. As it stands, if the tone was flipped on its' side and the movie was jam-packed with jokes and humor but had the same writers, director, and editor, guess what? The movie would still be crap.

Not every comic book fan likes every incarnation of their favourite character. Just because this movie features Batman and Superman doesn’t mean it will appeal to the Batman and Superman you like, but consider that it appeals to the Batman and Superman other people like.

You'd be singing a different tune if Batman in this movie was a smiley, winks-to-the-camera "Stay in school" type of hero that made lots of insufferable bat-related puns.

If you like Superman to be a cheerful fellow, I’m afraid I got some bad news. This Superman is dour. Super dour. I think he smiled once in the whole movie and that was when he got into a tub with a naked Amy Adams. He joylessly saved a bunch of people, making it almost seem like it was a chore more than a calling. ‘Oh no Superman is meant to be cheerful.’ No, Superman is whatever the hell the directors and writers want him to be. You have your happy Superman in comics and movies and TV. Guilty, remorseful Superman is here.

Wrong. Artistic interpretation only lets you get away with so much. Kryptonians being born artificially because they practice eugenics? Okay. Perry White being a black dude? Fine. Uncle Ben'ing Pa Kent? Whatever. More people being afraid of Superman than seeing him as a hero? Sure. All that's fine. Now you can change aspects of a character, but when you start mucking about with the core of who they are then they cease to be that character. And that's what happened here. They didn't put a new spin on Superman, they just made him more like Batman. And look, I realize you have issues with Marvel for having the audacity to not take movies about a 1940's super soldier, the god of thunder, and space raccoons very seriously, but while many of the characters crack jokes and quips they at least all have distinct looks and personalities that set them apart from one another. That's not the case here. As I've said before time and time again, everyone CAN'T be Batman. If everyone is Batman, nobody is Batman. Or more to the point, instead of getting The Justice League we'll get six or seven interchangeable stiff, moody, unlikable dipshits who are only set apart by their costumes, genders, and races.

You want Superman to be in darker situations where there's no easy way out, even for him? Fine! Go ahead! Superman vs The Elite did just that and it was great. And you know what else? He still acted like Superman. In spite of his morals being accused of being antiquated and the public pretty much turning against him, he still stayed true to who he was. He didn't like it, sure, but he didn't compromise his character for the sake of popularity. In fact, he showed exactly what would happen if he did cross that line, and it was frightening. But again, he still acted like Superman.

And the movie he co-headlined made $500 million in under a week.

So did Tansformers 4. Making a shit ton of money doesn't mean it's a good movie. Titanic and Avatar still remain the highest grossing movies of all time, yet there are just as many people who detest those movies as there are who adore them.

It seems like the real winner out of the fight between Batman and Superman was Wonder Woman. She outsmarted Batman, held her own against Doomsday, and wasn’t bogged down with ‘woman problems’ like Black Widow was during Age of Ultron.

Considering she was in the movie for all of eight minutes, that isn't saying much.

I know, I know, some will moan that Wonder Woman debuted in a Batman movie, but it was a great debut and got me interested in seeing her solo movie. In setting up the DC Extended Universe, I thought this movie did a tremendous job.

That's the problem. This movie was all set-up and no pay off. It doesn't feel like a movie, but rather a two and a half hour trailer. Most of which feels completely forces, and unlike Nick Fury at the end credits for Iron Man, it doesn't feel like a promise. It feels like a threat.

I’m actually interested in seeing where things go from here. Could the future scenario happen and we see Injustice Superman taking over? Why was the Flash in a mechanical suit? When Superman returns from the dead (and I really wished they kept him dead) will be more bitter and angry than he was before? I sure do hope so.

...

Okay, seriously. What is your beef with Superman? Why do you want to see him dragged through the mud and raked across the coals so much? And more importantly, why are you so hell-bent on seeing Superman tread unfamiliar territory, yet Batman evidently gets a free pass? You want to talk about treading unfamiliar territory? Alright, let's talk about it! Let's talk about the sheer travesty it is that we'll likely never see Superman go toe-to-toe with the likes of Parasite, Livewire, Mxysptlk, Mongol, Metallo, Bizarro, Brainiac, or anyone else in his great rogues gallery on the big screen, but we'll see Batman fight the Joker and his goons for the billionth fucking time.

[Lyger]

Being dark or light, sad, funny, scary, or thrilling doesn't make a movie good. Good writing, good direction, and good editing make movies good. I hate this movie not because it's an utterly joyless slog completely devoid of nuance and gravitas yet thinks it's smarter than it actually is (though that certainly doesn't help) but because it's just a bad movie. The writing is bad, the pacing is bad, the editing is bad, and while the visuals look impressive it's only if you're able to see them through the over-saturated shadow effects and obnoxious shaking camera. If the movie was dark and gritty AND good, I wouldn't care. As it stands, if the tone was flipped on its' side and the movie was jam-packed with jokes and humor but had the same writers, director, and editor, guess what? The movie would still be crap.

There’s no way to convince you that there are people out there who enjoyed this movie, and that’s fine. It is a divisive movie. Bear in mind this flick’s IMDB public rating is 7 out of 10, which is a fair score. It’s the critics, half of whom must be sick to death of super movies, who have been slating it. Hey, I liked this movie, but even I will admit it’s not perfect. The newspaper shot announcing the death of Superman and ‘disappearance’ of Clark Kent (AKA the guy who looks just like Superman) was unintentionally hilarious. Pretty much every superhero movie has these so-called ‘cinema sins.’ If everyone was so focused on the plot holes, no one would ever enjoy any of these movies.

You'd be singing a different tune if Batman in this movie was a smiley, winks-to-the-camera "Stay in school" type of hero that made lots of insufferable bat-related puns.

That’s the Lego Batman movie and it’s out next year. Isn’t it great that there are versions of these characters for basically everyone?

Wrong. Artistic interpretation only lets you get away with so much. Kryptonians being born artificially because they practice eugenics? Okay. Perry White being a black dude? Fine. Uncle Ben'ing Pa Kent? Whatever. More people being afraid of Superman than seeing him as a hero? Sure. All that's fine. Now you can change aspects of a character, but when you start mucking about with the core of who they are then they cease to be that character. And that's what happened here. They didn't put a new spin on Superman, they just made him more like Batman. And look, I realize you have issues with Marvel for having the audacity to not take movies about a 1940's super soldier, the god of thunder, and space raccoons very seriously, but while many of the characters crack jokes and quips they at least all have distinct looks and personalities that set them apart from one another. That's not the case here. As I've said before time and time again, everyone CAN'T be Batman. If everyone is Batman, nobody is Batman. Or more to the point, instead of getting The Justice League we'll get six or seven interchangeable stiff, moody, unlikable dipshits who are only set apart by their costumes, genders, and races.

Marvel characters have distinct personalities? In the Avengers movies, the heroes and villains are all cracking similar meta-jokes. If Star Lord and Iron Man swapped dialogue, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. Marvel is so obsessed with having a uniform look and feel to their movies, they’ve driven out least half-a-dozen directors. If Marvel can have similar movies, why can’t DC?

Okay, seriously. What is your beef with Superman? Why do you want to see him dragged through the mud and raked across the coals so much? And more importantly, why are you so hell-bent on seeing Superman tread unfamiliar territory, yet Batman evidently gets a free pass? You want to talk about treading unfamiliar territory? Alright, let's talk about it! Let's talk about the sheer travesty it is that we'll likely never see Superman go toe-to-toe with the likes of Parasite, Livewire, Mxysptlk, Mongol, Metallo, Bizarro, Brainiac, or anyone else in his great rogues gallery on the big screen, but we'll see Batman fight the Joker and his goons for the billionth fucking time.

It’s not as if Superman’'s torturing, branding and killing people. He’s still a pretty clear-cut good guy. The point I made was that certain Superman fans will not like this movie. In most crossover material, a lot of effort is made to make sure none of the protagonists look weaker or superior to one another (In the first Avengers, Thor, Iron Man and Captain America all got an equal amount of offense against each other). In BvS, Batman beats Superman. Batman spares Superman’s life. I like that the creative team actually had the guts to have one character be portrayed as superior to another. If they’re biased towards Batman, at least that shows they’ve got a clear creative direction. Killing off and giving hints of an evil Superman, that’s not something that could have easily been predicted. When there's 30 superhero movies in the next 10 years, it's nice to have at least some of them offer some suprisies.

Of course, Now DC has panicked, wussed out, and ordered reshoots which add more humor to the Sucide Squad movie, you'll probally get your way and have the DC movies be more in line with Marvel's.

[thatguywiththefaceOG]

Of course, Now DC has panicked, wussed out, and ordered reshoots which add more humor to the Sucide Squad movie, you'll probally get your way and have the DC movies be more in line with Marvel's.

God forbid a movie about a crocodile man and a guy who fights with boomerangs have jokes in it

[Nurse Katie]

There’s no way to convince you that there are people out there who enjoyed this movie, and that’s fine. It is a divisive movie. Bear in mind this flick’s IMDB public rating is 7 out of 10, which is a fair score. It’s the critics, half of whom must be sick to death of super movies, who have been slating it. Hey, I liked this movie, but even I will admit it’s not perfect. The newspaper shot announcing the death of Superman and ‘disappearance’ of Clark Kent (AKA the guy who looks just like Superman) was unintentionally hilarious. Pretty much every superhero movie has these so-called ‘cinema sins.’ If everyone was so focused on the plot holes, no one would ever enjoy any of these movies.

You don't need to convince me that people enjoyed this movie, because I talked to several of them and they think I'm the asshole for not liking it. As for the IMDB rating, that isn't saying much. Superman Returns has a similar rating and I haven't met anyone who genuinely liked that movie. I'll give it this though. At least that Superman pulled off great feats of heroism and actually went out of his way to save people instead of looking at footage of a burning building for give minutes and then grudgingly deciding to change and go save them. Oh yeah, and he could take off flying as well as land without ruining the floor or ceiling. Don't get me wrong, Superman smashing through walls during action scenes is fine, but good god, he does it almost every time he shows up!

As for you admitting it's not perfect, that's the thing. Man of Steel has it's defenders and I'm one of them, some even going so far as to saying it's a good movie and the naysayers are just out of touch with the times and so on and so forth. That isn't the case with this movie! Even the people that genuinely like it say "Yeah, this movie's a mess." Which isn't surprising, considering there are probably seven stories crammed into one movie. And that never works. Truth be told, this movie should have been one of three things.

1.) A direct sequel to Man of Steel, where Superman struggles with one half of the planet seeing him as an alien menace and the other half worshiping him as a god and him trying to get people to find a middle ground, meanwhile Lex Luthor is toying with Kryptonian technology and eventually creates the villain of the movie (such as Bizarro, Parasite, or Livewire; seriously, save Doomsday for later) and Superman's later defeat of said villain assures the world that he's here to help, then the movie closes with Batman watching the scene unfold in the Bat-cave and still not convinced because...duh.

2.) A movie simply titled "Dawn of Justice" that's essentially a murder/mystery story starring Batman and Wonder Woman, setting up both characters and their stories/backgrounds while Batman hunts for the one responsible for the death of an important figure in Gotham and Wonder Woman searching for stolen photos/footage of her, with someone like Adam Strange being the one responsible for both. And when the big bad does eventually show up it's Superman that makes the guest appearance at the end of the third act and helps them put the big bad away, and the movie ends with the three of them discussing how some threats are too big for any one hero to face and they'll need some help.

3.) And if they really must go with the tired angle of Superman and Batman fighting each other, then they should have focused on that and only that. Have Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent interact and actually become friends even though both sides are gunning for each other, but neither of them find out who they actually are because, duh, they have to keep their identities secret. And between scenes of Batman beating up thugs and Superman saving people from terrorist attacks and natural disasters, Clark and Bruce just pal around. Going to a baseball game, attending a 1%er party only to roll their eyes and hit up an Irish Pub, or doing a day's hard work at Ma Kent's farm and then cracking open a couple of brewskies while they sit around the barbecue cooking up a few slabs of Kansas beef for dinner. And for good measure, paraphrase the one (intentionally) funny scene in Twister.

Bruce: Ms. Kent, where did you get beef like this?
Martha: Well, take a look at my cows!
Bruce: (looks around) ...what cows?
Martha: (smiles) Exactly.

Not only would scenes like that add some levity to balance out the dark and dismal scenes, but also make Batman's change of heart make sense and add some actual gravitas. During the scene where Batman spares Superman, it isn't because "ERMAHGERD, YER MAHMS NERM IZ MAH MAHMS NERM!" it's because not only did Bruce come dangerously close to outright murdering his only real friend outside of Alfred, but also because mentally he's kicking himself for not only NOT finding out the truth sooner but for even thinking of such a ludicrous idea that someone as good, pure, and nice as Clark could ever pose a threat to humanity.

But no, instead we get what may as well be titled "Batgod: Clusterfuck of Justice." And yes, all movies have problems. Age of Ultron has more than its share of problems, perhaps even comparable to Batman v Superman. The difference?




Age of Ultron takes itself seriously when it needs to, but it doesn't take itself TOO seriously. The movie acknowledges "Hey, we're a movie about a super soldier, a rich guy in power armor, the Norse god of thunder, a super spy, a giant green rage monster, another super spy who uses weapon that was outmoded centuries ago yet still survives, and a robot plus two not-mutants fighting an evil robot and his army with some thinly disguised commentary about drone warfare. Lighten up and have some fun!" So while it does have problems, it's self-aware to those problems and isn't trying to accomplish anything outside of showing you a good time.

Batman v Superman, meanwhile, does the exact opposite. It's rife with problems, yet takes itself stone-faced and serious. It even has the gall to present itself like it's the one smart person in a land of idiots. "Oh, we aren't those silly Marvel movies, what with their bright colors and their happy endings. We're a serious superhero movie! We're sophisticated and smart and for adults, not stupid little children under the assumption that superhero movies are supposed to be fun! Yes, leave your little groin spawn in the showing of Zootopia, our movie about a rich guy who dresses as a giant bat, an alien with incredible powers, and an Amazon warrior princess is for adults!"

The irony there being that Zootopia is more adult and mature than Batman v Superman will ever be. Isn't it funny how making things more 'adult' only make them more childish?

That’s the Lego Batman movie and it’s out next year. Isn’t it great that there are versions of these characters for basically everyone?

Not the same thing. Lego Batman is an over the top, self-aware parody of Batman and DC in general, and a spin-off to the equally self-aware, over the top and satirical Lego Movie. It isn't pretending to be the end-all cornerstone of superhero/comic book movies.

Even so, where the hell is the Lego Superman movie?

Marvel characters have distinct personalities? In the Avengers movies, the heroes and villains are all cracking similar meta-jokes. If Star Lord and Iron Man swapped dialogue, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference.

Yeah, no. I just imagined Iron Man giving a lame, ham-fisted speech about Footloose while Star Lord tries to tell Gamora that he's dying by making terrible food and it doesn't gel.

Marvel is so obsessed with having a uniform look and feel to their movies, they’ve driven out least half-a-dozen directors. If Marvel can have similar movies, why can’t DC?

Because Marvel has shown that they're equally as interested in bringing these characters and who they are to life on the big screen as well as making money, while DC leans so much on Batman that their whole movieverse may as well be called the Batman Cinematic Batman Universe Starring Batman.

It’s not as if Superman’'s torturing, branding and killing people. He’s still a pretty clear-cut good guy.

No, instead he's smashing squishy humans through concrete walls, destroying public property with almost every landing and takeoff, threatening to incinerate Lex Luthor, and going out of his way to save Lois Lane while letting Jimmy Olsen get executed and being able to hear Lois drowning from several blocks away AND Alfred through Batman's earpiece, but unable to hear a bomb about to go off 10 feet to his right which results in the destruction of the capital building. Yeah, real good guy material there.

The point I made was that certain Superman fans will not like this movie. In most crossover material, a lot of effort is made to make sure none of the protagonists look weaker or superior to one another (In the first Avengers, Thor, Iron Man and Captain America all got an equal amount of offense against each other).

Yeah. You know why? So they don't alienate fans of the characters. The last they wanted was boisterous Thor fans leaving the theater beating their chests and shouting "Verily!" while Iron Man fans bitterly threw away their unfinished popcorn on account of Thor beating Iron Man's ass because that would have led to less ticket sales for the next movie. Which brings us to this...

In BvS, Batman beats Superman. Batman spares Superman’s life. I like that the creative team actually had the guts to have one character be portrayed as superior to another. If they’re biased towards Batman, at least that shows they’ve got a clear creative direction.

It was anything but creative. Creative if you never read any comic book ever, but for everyone else it was wearyingly and pathetically predictable. Any comic book savvy person knew straight from the get-go when it was announced that Batman was going to be in the movie by reading a line from The Dark Knight Rises that Batman was going to win. Not just because of the material it largely borrowed from, but because DC panders to Batman fans the way Donald Trump panders to racists and idiots. Oh yeah, and how did that work out for them? I'd imagine not well, as the alienation of Superman fans is likely playing a significant part in the 70% decline of ticket sales in one week. Even the Superman fans who prefer their Superman to be a mopey sad-sack still want to see him come out on top and not be portrayed as needlessly stupid and incompetent, which is exactly what this movie does.

Superman Fan: Hey, how was the movie?
Casual Moviegoer: Well...do you prefer Batman or Superman?
Superman Fan: Superman...
Casual Moviegoer: Jimmy Olsen and Mercy Graves die seconds within appearing, Lex Luthor is a twitchy rich weirdo instead of a criminal mastermind who gets locked up and the key thrown away at the end, Superman smiles one time in the whole movie, gets his ass kicked by Batman, his mom gets kidnapped and Batman has to save her, and he goes out like a bitch in the end leaving Batman to form the Justice League.
Superman Fan: ...and Lois Lane?
Casual Moviegoer: Has no reason to be in the movie.
Superman Fan: Yikes...well, at least he gives Luthor his comeuppance before dying, right?
Casual Moviegoer: ....
Superman Fan: ....Batman does it, doesn't he?
Casual Moviegoer: Yep.
Superman Fan: *sighs wistfully, then turns to the ticket booth* One for Zootopia, please. Guess I'll just have to wait another 20 years for a good Superman movie...

Of course, Now DC has panicked, wussed out, and ordered reshoots which add more humor to the Sucide Squad movie, you'll probally get your way and have the DC movies be more in line with Marvel's.

Wrong again. If DC wants to go for a darker and more serious tone, fine, but they shouldn't muck about with the core of their characters and they should leave SOME room for fun and jest. Because without levity of any sort, the audience just feel exhausted. If this movie wasn't so insultingly infuriating, I would have fallen asleep on the car-ride home because of how down on itself and the audience this movie was.

But above all, just make the movies good. And these movies so far aren't good! Man of Steel was just okay and this movie was a disaster! They don't care about making good movies and bringing their great non-Batman characters to life on the big screen, and if they don't care then why should I? As for them panicking, yeah, that about sums up DC and their movies. They panicked when The Dark Knight Rises got spanked by The Avengers, they panicked when Man of Steel only made enough money to buy nine luxury yachts instead of ten, and now they're panicking because emulating Nolan and pandering to Bat-fans didn't pay off the way they hoped it would. And I'm almost certain they'll take the wrong message, muck something else up, and panic again after Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman come out. Assuming they don't outright cancel the Wonder Woman movie because some wormy exec blames BvS's underperformance on her.